- Only God the Father and the Son of God know each other, and only the Son has seen the Father.
- Only the Father and Son know each other: “All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him” (Mat 11:27); “Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also” (Jhn 8:19); “Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying” (Jhn 8:55); “As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep” (Jhn 10:15); “O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me” (Jhn 17:25).
- Nobody but the Son has seen God the Father: “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him” (Jhn 1:18); “And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.” (Jhn 5:37); “Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father” (Jhn 6:46); “Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see” (1Ti 6:16); “No man hath seen God at any time” (1Jo 4:12).
- The Son called Himself “the Son of God” and the Father called Him “My Beloved Son.” The Son never called Himself “God” and the Father never called His Son “God.” Furthermore, the Son did call His Father “God” and even called Him “My God.” Finally, neither of them called the holy spirit [breath] “God.” What the Father and Son said about each other is the final word.
- Jesus Christ taught that God is one person.
- Speaking to His Father, Christ called Him the only true God, “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (Jhn 17:3). He identified and categorized His Father as the only true God, and excluded Himself from the only true God.
- Christ affirmed what Moses wrote, “The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord [kyrios] our God is one Lord [kyrios]” (Mar 12:29). The Greek kyrios appears about 750 times in the New Testament and is a lord, master, or ruler. Since “The Ruler” is “one ruler,” therefore Christ attested that God isn’t three co-equal rulers but one.
- The Greek theos for “God” or “gods” is grammatically singular or plural depending on the number of persons. One person requires theos to be singular while multiple persons requires plural. This is simple grammar. And since Christ always used theos in the singular when speaking about God, then God is one person. This is further bolstered by the fact that when He spoke about men as gods—more than one person as theos—He used the plural, “I said, Ye are gods [theos]? If he called them gods [theos]” (Jhn 10:34-35). Christ and the apostle Paul both used this word in plural and singular form even within the same statement, “I said, Ye are gods [theos]? If he called them gods [theos], unto whom the word of God [theos] came” (Jhn 10:34-35), “For though there be that are called gods [theos], whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods [theos] many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God [theos], the Father” (1Co 8:5-6). Paul also emphasized that the plural is “many” and the singular is “one.” Since both Christ and Paul understood and used theos as either plural or singular based on the number of persons, then the singular Theos is one person.
- Scripture is replete with statements identifying the Father as God with many of these same statements also distinguishing the Son in distinction from Him as the Lord Jesus Christ: “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him” (Jhn 1:18); “but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God” (Jhn 5:18); “for him hath God the Father sealed” (Jhn 6:27); “Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father” (Jhn 6:46); “Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God” (Jhn 13:3); “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God” (Jhn 16:27); “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God” (Jhn 20:17); “Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear” (Act 2:33); “To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom 1:7); “That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom 15:6); “Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ” (1Co 1:3); “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him” (1Co 8:6); “Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father” (1Co 15:24); “Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort” (1Co 1:2-3); “The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not” (2Co 11:31); “Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)” (Gal 1:1); “Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father” (Gal 1:3-4); “Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph 1:2-3); “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him” (Eph 1:17); “One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (Eph 4:6); “Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph 5:20); “Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph 6:23); “Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ” (Phl 1:2); “And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Phl 2:11); “Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” (Phl 4:20); “To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you” (Col 1:2-3); “And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him” (Col 3:17); “unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ” (1Th 1:1); “Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father” (1Th 1:3); “Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you” (1Th 3:11); “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints” (1Th 3:13); “Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (2Th 1:1-2); “Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace” (2Th 2:16); “Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord” (1Ti 1:2); “Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord” (2Ti 1:2); “Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour” (Tit 1:4); “Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Phm 1:3); “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this” (Jas 1:27); “Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God” (Jas 3:9); “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1Pe 1:2); “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1Pe 1:3); “For he received from God the Father honour and glory” (2Pe 1:17); “Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love” (2Jo 1:3); “Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called” (Jde 1:1); “And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” (Rev 1:6).
- We’re never told that the Father is seated on the left hand of the Son and we’re never told of a third person seated on the throne with them. The throne of God is the Father’s while the Son is seated next to Him on His right hand: “Sit thou at my right hand” (Psa 110:1); “Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God” (Luk 22:69); “being by the right hand of God exalted” (Act 2:33); “who is even at the right hand of God” (Rom 8:34); “set him at his own right hand” (Eph 1:20); “Christ sitteth on the right hand of God” (Col 3:1); “sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high” (Heb 1:3); “who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens” (Heb 8:1); “sat down on the right hand of God” (Heb 10:12); “is set down at the right hand of the throne of God” (Heb 12:2); “is on the right hand of God” (1Pe 3:22); “am set down with my Father in his throne” (Rev 3:21); “the throne of God and of the Lamb” (Rev 22:3).
- The Father is Jesus Christ’s God.
- Christ called His Father “My God” before He died, after He was resurrected, and after He had sat down at God’s right hand: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mat 27:46; Mar 15:34); “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God” (Jhn 20:17); “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God” (Rev 3:12).
- The prophets and apostles attested that the Father is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? … O my God, I cry in the daytime … thou art my God from my mother’s belly” (Psa 22:1-2,10); “I delight to do thy will, O my God” (Psa 40:8); “God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom 15:6); “And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s” (1Co 3:23); “the head of Christ is God” (1Co 11:3); “The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2Co 11:31); “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph 1:3); “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory” (Eph 1:17); “God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Col 1:3); “therefore God, even thy God” (Heb 1:9); “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1Pe 1:3).
- The Father and Son can’t be co-equal because the Son derived His power and authority from the Father: “until I make thine enemies thy footstool” (Psa 110:1); “All things are delivered unto me of my Father” (Mat 11:27); “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Mat 28:18); “Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God” (Luk 22:69); “The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand” (Jhn 3:35); “Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands” (Jhn 13:3); “for my Father is greater than I” (Jhn 14:28); “Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted” (Act 2:33); “Him hath God exalted” (Act 5:31); “For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” (1Co 15:27-28); “And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church” (Eph 1:22); “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name” (Phl 2:9); “he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they” (Heb 1:4); “Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet” (Heb 2:8); “angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him” (1Pe 3:22); “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing” (Rev 5:12).
- The Trinitarian claim that Christ was eternally begotten is an oxymoron. The normal and reasonable understanding of a father and son relationship is that a son begins existing at the time he is begotten or brought forth. The Son of God began existing when He was begotten or brought forth by His Father before the creation of the universe: “When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth” (Pro 8:24-25); “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth” (Jhn 1:14); “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him” (Jhn 1:18); “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (Jhn 3:16); “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (Jhn 3:18); “If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me” (Jhn 8:42); “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.” (Jhn 16:27-28); “For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me” (Jhn 17:8); “In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him” (1 John 4:19).
- The miracles Jesus Christ performed were not by any divine power retained after becoming fully human, but were by God the Father performing the works through Him.
- Christ Himself said that He couldn’t do the miraculous works but that His Father was doing them: “But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God” (Mat 12:28); “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do” (Jhn 5:19); “I can of mine own self do nothing” (Jhn 5:30); “the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works” (Jhn 14:10).
- Christ performed miracles because God was with Him: “no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him” (Jhn 3:2); “Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know” (Act 2:22); “How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him” (Act 10:38).
- Christ performed miracles, not as God, but as the Prophet foretold by Moses: “The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet … I will raise them up a Prophet” (Deu 18:15,18); “This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee” (Mat 21:11); “That a great prophet is risen up among us” (Luk 7:16); “Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world” (Jhn 6:14); “When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done? … Of a truth this is the Prophet” (Jhn 7:31,40).
- Christ said that He didn’t know the day and hour of His return, “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father” (Mar 13:32).
- The holy spirit [hagios pneuma] is simply God’s breath, not a personal being. The Greek pneuma should have been translated throughout the New Testament as “breath,” not “spirit.”
- The Greek pneuma is simply the noun form of the verb pneō which means “to blow.” This word appears seven times in the New Testament, and all seven are used for the wind blowing: “And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew [pneō 4154] … And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew [pneō 4154]” (Mat 7:25,27); “And when ye see the south wind blow [pneō 4154]” (Luk 12:55); “The wind bloweth [pneō 4154] where it listeth” (Jhn 3:8); “And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew [pneō 4154]” (Jhn 6:18); “hoised up the mainsail to the wind [pneō 4154] and made toward shore” (Act 27:40); “that the wind should not blow [pneō 4154] on the earth” (Rev 7:1).
- The Greek pneuma is where our English word “pneumonia” is derived which a respiratory infection in the air sacs of the lungs that causes difficulty in breathing and can be life-threatening. Another word is “pneumatics” which is the scientific study of compressed air.
- After His resurrection, Christ defined hagios pneuma as “breath” by literally breathing on His disciples, “And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost [hagios pneuma]” (Jhn 20:22).
- The breath is literally the breath of God the Father: “the Spirit [breath] of God moved upon the face of the waters” (Gen 1:2); “For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit [breath] of your Father which speaketh in you” (Mat 10:20); “If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit [breath] to them that ask him?” (Luk 11:13); “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit [breath] of truth, which proceedeth from the Father” (Jhn 15:26); “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit [breath] of God dwell in you” (Rom 8:9); “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit [breath] of God dwelleth in you?” (1Co 3:16).
- The breath is figuratively Jesus Christ. In John chapters 14-16, Christ spoke of the holy breath as though a literal person, but concluded by qualifying His words as figurative: “These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs” (Jhn 16:25), “Though I have been speaking figuratively” (NIV), “I have spoken of these matters in figures of speech” (NLT), “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language” (NKJV). He was speaking figuratively of Himself as the breath.
- God gave Jesus Christ at His right hand, full agency over His breath. Therefore, the holy breath in our hearts is figuratively Christ Himself in us: “if so be that the Spirit [breath] of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit [breath] of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you” (Rom 8:9-10); “the Spirit [breath] itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered … It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us” (Rom 8:26, 34); “Now the Lord is that Spirit [breath]: and where the Spirit [breath] of the Lord is, there is liberty” (2Co 3:17); “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me” (Gal 2:20); “And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit [breath] of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father” (Gal 4:6); “to be strengthened with might by his Spirit [breath] in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith” (Eph 3:17); “To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Col 1:27).
- God the Father called His Son “my breath” through the prophet Joel, “And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit [breath]” (Joe 2:29). Peter quoted Joel, not as “pour out,” but “pour out of,” “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out [ekcheō 1632] of my Spirit [breath] upon all flesh … And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out [ekcheō 1632] in those days of my Spirit [breath]” (Act 2:17,18), “Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth [ekcheō 1632] this” (Act 2:33). God didn’t “pour out” His breath, but “poured out of” His breath, His Son at His right hand. Paul said the same, “renewing of the Holy Ghost [breath]; Which he shed [ekcheō 1632] on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour” (Tit 3:5-6).
- Many years after His ascension and seating at the right hand of God, Christ gave seven messages to seven churches in Asia, concluding each message with, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit [breath] saith unto the churches” (Rev 2:7,11,17,29, 3:6,13,22). He called Himself “the breath” not just once or twice but seven times.
- The doctrine of the Trinity is illogical: that the one God consists of three co-equal persons; that Christ is “God the Son” but also “the Son of God”; that Christ is both a 100% divine being and a 100% human being; that Christ was eternally begotten; that although God can’t be tempted, Christ is God and was tempted in all points; that although God can’t die, Christ is God and did die.
Understanding Scripture 
Excellent breakdown. I find the doctrine of the trinity contrary to the teachings of the old and new testament.
It is now seen as a form of cult thinking by some to not believe Jesus is God. I am puzzled by the attempts of some to shame those who don’t believe this. It practically seems demonic.
Do these trinity believers truly profess that Jesus is the Son of God while also claiming he is God as well?
Are they under a strong delusion?
Thank you
Hi Suz,
Thanks so much for inquiring! I get very, very few people reaching out to me. It always is encouraging for someone to take the time and at least post a comment. Thank you!
Yes, those shaming others are ruled by evil spirits. That’s not my opinion but the teaching of Scripture. Anyone not being ruled by the Lord Jesus Christ in complete submission to Him is being ruled by sin and the powers of darkness. I was a Trinitarian for about 30 years and experienced a fair amount of shaming when I left. That just solidified in my mind even more that I made the right move in leaving.
Yes, Trinitarians confess that Jesus is both God and the Son of God. But how can He be both? How can He be the Son of Himself? There are so many logical inconsistencies in Trinitarianism (which is a red flag of untruth) in addition to Christ’s plain teaching about God and about Himself. Yet multitudes are committed to Trinitarianism. Why? Well, the reason I was committed for 30 years was because I truly trusted pastors, preachers, scholars, and teachers. They seemed like genuine men of God that were highly educated and I wanted to learn. I just assumed they must know better than I did, so I trusted them.
People are like sheep in that they need a shepherd. They need someone to lead them, teach them, protect them, encourage them, and be an example to them. Although there are churches everywhere in my city, none of them are true churches with true shepherds. There’s nowhere for people to go. They’re sheep with no shepherd. It’s a dark world out there void of the truth. But it won’t be long for the end time events to occur and for Christ to return.
Thanks again for reaching out,
Ryan
I have no problem replying to this article or any other dealing with the mock from below which is the trinity, which I do not capitalize. The trinity is a man made doublespeak nonsense mock from below designated as a basis to insult YHWH and Yeshua. As I text this or at any other time, after his resurrection, the Son of YHWH sits at the right hand on power, he doesn’t see t next to himself. He is a son in the same fashion as any son, created, had a beginning and performed flawlessly adhering to the laws of his father, YHWH.
Tell me Trinitarians, pray tell, can you do greater miracles than YHWH? If the answer is no, why did Yeshua, who is your second person of your trinity, say “greater things than these he shall do” because I go back to the Father, who isn’t Yeshua. Pray tell, how do you do greater things than YHWH? Yeshua doesn’t know the day or hour, had asked the dad of the demon possessed boy how long has he been this way, could not grant seating assignments to two of his disciples even though they were worthy and not one demon called Yeshua YHWH.
Under the whacky trinitarian doctrine , having Yeshua as your second god of one and the Holy Spirit as your third person of one, has scripture stating that the second god of one can be insulted, ridiculed and mocked and forgiven but if the third person of one is mocked by anyone he will never be
forgiven , now and forever. The trinity doctrine is insane but designed to appear plausible. And it will dupe many.
Pray tell, According to trinitarian doctrine, if Yeshua is the second person of your trinity, how is it that people who win their reward can also sit with him on his throne? Pray tell?
“To him who overcomes I shall give to sit with me on my Throne”. *
Revelations 3:21
Pray tell trinitarians, tell me how and why you get to sit on YHWH’s throne?
Under trinitarian doctrine, Yeshua is the second person of their doctrine and the Holy Spirit is the third person of their doctrine. After Yeshua’s resurrection and upon his return he breathed the third person of the trinity into the disciples. Pray tell trinitarians, how did Yeshua breathe the third person into the disciples and did he have his permission? Even if he didn’t, pray tell, how did he accomplish this? I find it amazing that their are people who read this and will actually attempt to answer this question.
Under trinitarian doctrine, the Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity.
Let me clarify, trinitarians declare that the Holy Spirit is a human being, a person. The name they contend that this “person” goes by is either “paraclete” or “paracletus”. Not surprisingly because the trinity is a man’s made concept infused with doublespeak nonsense, we know nothing of “his” life and times. We know “his” first name is an adjective meaning comforter and that in Revelations, the so called third person of the trinity is almost never mentioned and “he” is not mentioned as to “his” seating assignment. We don’t know about “his” life and times or “his” accomplishments. “He” appears to be an enigma wrapped in a mystery.
Their is NO third person of any trinity, it is a man made mock from below designed to enslave you in a lie in which you support to your own detriment. Don’t do it, you will be like the blind leading the blind and you both will fall into a ditch.
Who touched me?
How long has he been this way?
What do you see?
Only the Father knows the day and hour! The Holy Spirit doesn’t know either.
How many loaves do you have?
It is not mine to give (when asked about seating assignments).
Since when does YHWH ask these questions? Trinitarians says “Jesus in his humanity can ask these questions”.
Oh really? Your imagination is at work if you believe this.
At what point does Yeshua switch from his humanity to be YHWH, and can he switch it on and off so that the trinitarian can make up this nonsense? What if he is both at the same time? Do you see the doublespeak nonsense of the trinity, the mock that it is?
I was a trinitarian minister for decades but always avoided teaching on the subject of the doctrine of the trinity or the “person” of the Holy Spirit because I never felt comfortable or confidant with either and knew I need to take time to look deeply into these doctrines or ideas, not neglecting the influence of Rome, Constantine and the strong influence of other leading religions or beliefs of the time. It was a 5 year deep dive into the struggle I had that eventually led me “out of her” and to in fact repent for accepting and following this false doctrine.
There became three main strong persuasions for me.
1. Anything less that total obedience to the First Commandment simply cannot be compromised. Making the “other gods” Jesus and the Holy Spirit and worshipping them is forbidden. Jesus himself in Mark 12:30-31 had a perfect opportunity here to establish his co equal role with God and to a scribe; who Im sure would love to have taken this new revelation down to paper in the biggest edit to have been made of all time to the Word of God. He didn’t do this however, rather, he confirmed the Theos One God and placed himself with us as a neighbours (member of the family of God, son, daughter, brother, sister,) and told us to love our neighbour members as we love ourselves. No amount of spin on any OT or NT scripture or verse by the council of Nicaea, Constantine, Athanasias, nor later church fathers or the church in Rome can change this First commandment nor compromise its absolute requirement of God upon us who choose to believe and obey. Im sure God foresaw what the NT church would do in creating other Gods when He made this point as it can only be a note for followers of Him, not the rest of the world who dont know Him or acknowledge Him. To me this “no other gods” note was for us because he knew our propensity to do just that as Moses discovered the people had done tight after God had reviled Himself to them in a cloud on the Sinai Mountain, Exodus 19:9- and told them not to do this exact thing. And here we are doing it still and much more so as the disobedience is foundational across most modern churches today.
2. Strangely, the doctrine or belief of most other worldly religions concerning pre-existence was condemned as heresy in the Second Council of Constantinople in AD 553; yet it has become one of the strongest argument of the trinitarian doctrine in trying to prove Jesus is God and did pre-exist as God before time Bagan. The trouble is that this is a condemned as heresy doctrine by the Council and nowhere in the bible does the idea or doctrine or belief come up in anyway shape of form. Not withstanding this however, the doctrine and belief of predestination does and the subject of the Mind of God and the forming of things in the mind of God as predestined to be made full is all through scripture. The Bible says nothing about the pre-existence of souls because this is a man-made idea with no basis in truth. The Bible makes it clear that every human being is a unique creation of God (Genesis 2:7; Zechariah 12:1; Jeremiah 1:5). Each unique human soul begins at conception (Psalm 139:13–16; Isaiah 44:24) and will continue forever because we are created as eternal beings (Genesis 9:6; Isaiah 40:28; Matthew 25:46).
Predestination which is in the heart and mind of God is no a pre existence that has had a role or has been active before it was finally formed. If we believe Jesus was pre-existent before time began and had an active role in His pre existence then we too must then subscribe to the doctrine or heresy in the belief that we too had active roles in existence before we were born as suggested by Plato in his shadow theory. The support for this idea can be spun in the same way the trinitarian doctrine spin it as evidence of Christ pre existence from the the verse Ephesians 1:4-5 where we are mentioned in the same way as Christ having existed from before time began.The Bible says that Predestination happened before creation or the earth’s foundation. God existed before any creation because he was the one who created. So, before he decided to create, he did things and made plans. One of the things he did was Predestination. The Bible says in Ephesians 1:4-5 that He chose us (meaning believers) before he established the earth. The Bible also says that he made us holy (separated us) and blameless because of his love. Further, he predestined us to become his sons in Jesus Christ. Therefore, the Bible says that Predestination happened before the earth was formed.
We know however that this is speaking of the mind of God and in His mind was a plan and it was made with the greatest detail and precision, desire and exactness. I remember being a young single man with a passionate heart unlike many of my friends at that time, to become a husband, the bast husband I could ever be and to then become a father the same. I had in my heart predestined that I would be a virgin and marry a virgin, I would marry my first love when she finally came to me, that she would be a blue eyed blond haired beautiful Christian woman and that we would together have two daughters the same. All of this was in my heart at 14 years old and with my minds eye I saw all of this is the future. It kept me righteous and strong and when I was 18 it began to form when i met my wife at a friends church I happened to visit one night. All was exactly fulfilled as it was within my heart and now I am a grandfather of six.
3. The person of the Holy Spirit? Simply, I dont ever see where the Holy Spirit of God (Gods manifest power) has ever been a person. It was seen once in the form of a dove, it has been a flame, a fire, the wind, an earthquake, a still small voice, but never a person. Jesus was a person with a personality, emotions, language, thought, laughed, cried, got angry and spoke of the members of his person (body parts). This is exactly the same of the Father, in all respects He demonstrates His person and personality through all of the Word. He has fingers, eyes, feet, sits, stands, has hands, a right hand side and flowing robes. I dont see the “person” of the Holy Spirt and never have even when I was a follower of the doctrine of the trinity. The Holy Spirit has always been the Spirit of God manifest, reaching, touching, empowering and baptising (fully submerging us) just as John said Christ baptism would replace his with water by baptising us in the Holy Spirit and fire, John 3 11.
While these became the three main strong persuasions for me, ill finish by saying that a most recent argument of the trinitarian that claims Christ could not have saved us if He were just a man because only God is able to save so Christ must be God/man. This argument totally misses the point of how Christ saves us or the role he plays in saving us. He does not need to be God to save, just in the same way the lamb without spot or blemish was not God. God doesn’t need a God to put upon the sin and punishment of the world, what He needs is a sacrifice that is without sin, spot or blemish, blameless. God doesn’t want to put sin and punishment, his wrath and judgement on Himself, this can never be so because he is God and none of these things can be done to God and God cannot die.
What God said he needed was a final sacrifice once and for all that would replace the annual sacrifice offered for the sin of the people. He told us that he would provide the lamb for this, His only begotten son, that he would put on him all the sin and punishment of the world and who’s blood, when it was shed, would forever sanctify mankind and from that time forward there would be no more the requirement for an annual sacrifice as His sons sacrifice would be supreme and would last forever.
The reason the man Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit was that God could provide a man perfect and blameless to be the supreme sacrifice and that his father would be God and he will be Gods son. When we come to Jesus and accept his sacrifice we are putting our sin and punishment on him as the sacrificial lamb, not as a god. The price has been paid, the sacrifice made and sin and punishment taken away once we accept Christs as our offering too.
Drewson,
Thanks so much for sharing your journey about coming out of Trinitarianism. I really appreciate how you said that you never taught about it because you just didn’t feel comfortable or convinced. You really made some good points in your three main strong persuasions. Thank you for posting here!
Just to be sure I know your stance, when you said “Jesus was pre-existent before time began” and “Christ having existed from before time began” and that “God existed before any creation because he was the one who created” are you confessing or denying that Christ pre-existed His humanity?
Ryan
Thanks Ryan. I believe that Christ pre-existed His humanity ONLY in the heart and mind of God as one who God predestined to become His only begotten Son. All references to Christ before this time were prophetic and was God revealing the exactness of His plan of salvation. I dont believe Christ or (who or what He otherwise would have been named) existed or had any other heavenly role, position or status before he was begotten.
The “let us create man in our own image” argument of the trinitarian suggesting the “US” was the trinity, has no foundation and therefore cant, IMO, satisfy the doctrine of pre existence, otherwise condemned by the church.
I have come to the conviction that the “US” was referring to the “Council of God”, also referred to as the “Great Assembly” or “Heavens Court”. I found my study into the Council of God very fascinating in that its establishment must have come about before our time began, which makes you wonder what the Father had previously been up to before he created the heavens and the earth LOL. I love to ask the silly question “What do you think God was up to 256 Trillion years before he decided to create the heavens and the earth”. It always shakes me out of my limited thinking about the Father, out of my earthly time restraints on Him and reminds me that because of what His Son has achieved for us on the cross of calvary, Im actually going to get to see what he actively gets up to over the next 256 trillion years LOL. “Got Questions” is just one small collection of scriptures and commentary on the Council of God, the “US” IMO. https://www.gotquestions.org/divine-council.html
These are just my thoughts, but I also believe that while Jesus didn’t exist before he was begotten, Im certain he was made manifestly aware of who he had been within the heart and mind of His Father once He had became fully aware of His divine calling and purpose and favour. The first recorded sign that he had become aware was when He was 12 and He said “I had to be in my Father’s house” in Luke 2:41- and in v52 It says “Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” Its interesting that he “grew in favour with God”. I believe at this time, or before, he would have seen of Himself and knew of His destiny and fully saw and understood His pre destined (not pre existent) self from before time began.
Hello I love everything that I have read in this section, the article and the comments is all adding to my learning and helping me to unlearn the lies I believed and preached so many years. I have a question about the preexistence of Christ, what do you think of the Scripture where Paul says that Christ was the rock in 1 Corinthians 10:4 the rock that was giving the people of God water while they were those 40 years in the dessert?
Hi Nohemi,
Thank you for reaching out to me! And thank you for letting me know that my work is helping you. That is a real blessing to me.
The Scriptures are very clear that Christ pre-existed His humanity. He was in the beginning with God, and He (the Son of God) created everything: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (Jhn 1:1-3); “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ” (Eph 3:9); “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him” (Col 1:16); “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds” (Heb 1:2).
Concerning your question. In what way was Christ the Rock that gave God’s people water in the desert, “And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ” (1Co 10:4)? Notice the verse before it is similar, “And did all eat the same spiritual meat” (1Co 10:3). The “spiritual meat” is the manna they ate that came down from heaven, and Christ said that the manna is Himself, “Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat” (Jhn 6:31), “For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world … I am the bread of life” (Jhn 6:34,35). Of course He is not literally bread, He is literally a human being. He was simply speaking figuratively. The literal bread from heaven in the days of Moses was symbolic of the Son of God who came down from heaven and fed God’s people. Paul used the same terminology as “spiritual meat” for “spiritual drink” and “spiritual Rock.” The literal rock that gave God’s people water in the desert was symbolic of the Son of God. These actual events in the days of Moses were simply types and figures of the events to come in the life of Christ.
There are many other types of Christ in the Old Testament. Here is one more. Christ Himself referred to the serpent on the pole, “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up” (Jhn 3:14). He was not literally on that pole. It was simply a type of what He would accomplish by hanging on the cross for our sins.
I hope that answers your question. Also, you said, “helping me to unlearn the lies I believed and preached so many years.” Were you, or are you a preacher? I would like to hear more about your story of what you have come through to bring you to where you are today. If you feel comfortable, please contact me at my email ryan@understandingscripture.net It would be great to hear from you.
May God richly bless you,
Ryan
Upon reading the Bible myself, I noticed that Jesus Christ refers to God as the father and that all the miracles that Jesus performed on Earth were not by Jesus, but by God working through Jesus. If we were to get beamed into heaven this instant, we would find God the father and the Son of God in Jesus Christ in heaven with God on his throne and Jesus Christ to the right hand of God. This simple fact blows apart the Trinity Doctrine as false. The point of Jesus Christ as the Son of God was to undo the sin that Adam and Eve brought into the world with the perfect human being of Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for the past, present, and future sins of humanity, a gift from the mercy of God the father. There is only one God and God can’t die, revealing the falseness of the Trinity Doctrine. The end of Revelations warns humanity about not adding to or taking anything away from the Bible that will result in the loss of eternal life with God in Chapter 22, versus 18-19 that “18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book. 19 And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share of the tree of life and the holy city, which are written about in this book.’ Those who believe in the Trinity Doctrine should heed the warning of Revelations, Chapter 22, Verses 18 and 19.
there are 2 primary logical conclusions in the Bible that turned me away from the trinity, but there are many other scriptures that I could also use to buttress my arguement.